Its populist, nationalist versus elite globalist lumbers on here. She's banned. They're trying to ban a Gavin Wax. You're going to be banned eventually by the free speech absolutist. The nerds don't take criticism. [00:00:15] They're kind of, you know, they're a little bit all on the spectrum, right? So they don't know. They're not deep in social skills. So it is Steve Bannon joining into the I thought it was already going the Civil War on the right. But it seems to be expanding even throughout today between like [00:00:32] the long time MAGA hardcore base and then some of the the newer MAGA, the techie billionaire MAGA. They really disagree on a variety of things, and it has quickly become, [00:00:48] it's got to the point of people being, you know, losing their access to Twitter, accusations of betrayals and racist comments. And we're going to dive into all of that. We do want to let you know that it seems to have basically started when Donald Trump appointed Sriram Krishnan to serve as senior white House [00:01:07] policy advisor on artificial intelligence. Which would it happen? Probably didn't seem like it would cause the fissure that broke MAGA, but that's how it's looking right now, and we're going to get to all the details. But Jake, what do you make of this? So I agree with Elon and Vivek, but I love the rebellion against him. [00:01:24] So I'm going to explain why in a little bit. And as we were talking, Elon Musk just liked my tweet on this, like right now on the show. And I'm going to tell you why he liked it. Once we get to that part of it, even though I'm criticizing him in parts, [00:01:41] because what's most interesting guys is the fissures is the divisions within the right wing. And that's what makes this story amazing. Yes. - So more details. - You'll you'll criticize in part. I will do all of the rest of it, because I long for a day in which we no longer have to know that he exists. [00:01:58] But for now, we do. But let's let's jump back to the new advisor for artificial intelligence and why it caused all of this issue. So Krishnan is an Indian American entrepreneur, has previously worked in a number of different major tech companies Microsoft and Twitter and Yahoo and Facebook and Snap. [00:02:14] So I kind of all of them, I guess he's a United States citizen, by the way, that will be either ignored or lost on many of the people who want to make this immediately a race thing. But the big issue for him is that he supports using H-1b visas to bring foreign workers in to work based on certain specific skills. [00:02:33] They have to work in engineering, coding, that sort of thing. And so some of the original MAGA people, for whom America First is not a suggestion, it's really a command. We're not happy about this. So Laura Loomer is never going to miss an opportunity to be involved [00:02:49] in some sort of massive racist uproar. So she tweeted, our country was built by white Europeans, actually, not third world invaders from India again. He's a United States citizen. But anyway, you know, it was white Europeans who created the American dream, [00:03:04] and we didn't create it so that it could be exploited by pro-open border techies like you. P.S. Why are people in India still essing in the water they bathe and drink from? Because if you thought she was going to get through a tweet without making it real gross, no, that's not going to happen. [00:03:19] So anyway, she goes on to say, don't talk to me as an American citizen about innovation when we actually have running water and indoor plumbing here in America. Perhaps you need to retake your American history class. Do the tech billionaires you work with in Silicon Valley even bother teaching their third World hires about American history anymore? [00:03:35] Or are you only interested in your invader supremacist revisionist history? And I love that's my favorite part at the end, where she capped it off, where it's those other people who are supremacists, not the person insisting that we bow down to our white forefathers who created all of this. [00:03:51] But anyway, and lots of other people jumped in. You can see tweets like this. Did any of you all vote for this Indian to run America? Jesus. And look, I want your commentary, but this is where Elon is going to get wrapped up in this because he, like Krishnan, supports using these H-1b visas. [00:04:09] He's been very clear about that for a number of years. He's been clearer on that than he has been in support for Trump and for longer. But but it's already getting really gross. Yeah. So guys, I was just going to explain to you my position. There's no point in reading you the tweet. I thought until Elon liked it in the middle of the segment. [00:04:25] And so the fact that he did is an interesting indication that is actually relevant to the story. So let me read you the tweet that I did before the show. It summarizes my point of view, and then we'll talk through all the ramifications. I said, I agree with Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy about H-1b visas, which is [00:04:42] what we're going to get into in a second. But I love the rebellion against them because it shows that MAGA is thinking for itself. I said I disagree with the right wing populist here, because I think it's awesome that the most talented engineers across the world want to come here. And I think they make a stronger because we get to take the top talent of all the other countries. [00:04:58] That's the great advantage of being America. We shouldn't throw that away. But this fight shows that MAGA is not a monolith, and that's a great thing. Vivek is right and wrong. He's right that we should celebrate nerds. We're going to get to that part of the story in a second. And people who work hard in school. But he's wrong that we need to put down anyone else in order to do that. [00:05:16] I was both an honor student and a middle linebacker for our football team. There's nothing wrong with being a jock or a nerd or both. And I said, I can't stand Laura Loomer, and I think her comments about Indians are awful, but I also don't think she should be punished for her comments blocked or unverified, which is another part of the story we're going to get to let [00:05:32] the marketplace of ideas sort this out. The forces for good don't need sensors to help us. And so since Elon is being accused of censoring Laura Loomer, the fact that he liked that tweet is interesting. - It might be lost on him. - I don't know. [00:05:47] I don't think he's as intelligent as people think he is. But okay. That's look, everything is a possibility, right? And so let me get to the core of why I love all of this. Because, guys, in the bad old days, whether it was Mitch McConnell as the leader of the Republican Party or George W Bush or Dick Cheney or Donald Trump in his first term, [00:06:05] they would just give an order and all the Republicans would go, yes, sir. Right. And now orders are given and people go, maybe, sir, but maybe not. And then we get into this giant messy fight that is way better than one person [00:06:22] gives an order, one person is completely in charge and everybody is in a cult. And they do exactly what they're told. Right. So this particular fight is already instantly ugly. And so I've been talking about left wing populism and right wing populism and how we agree on maybe about 40% of stuff antiwar, anti-corruption, etc. [00:06:40] But there's 60% we don't agree with. This is among the 60% we don't agree with because there's nothing wrong with H-1b visas. Look again here. I'm going to turn to Ramesh now because Ramesh some folks are saying no, there are there is something wrong with H-1b visas. It's being applied wrong. [00:06:56] It's maybe not a bad idea overall, but it allows people, the tech companies to hire people for less money, etc.. - What's your take on that? - Well, several different things. First, very, very troubled and something that has to be broken down. How those driving tech have turned more and more to the right [00:07:12] and to become MAGA supporters. And I know you all have been covering that, but there's a lot to get into there. And second, sort of somewhat shamefully, for me as a child of H-1b visa parents and as someone who's South Asian and Indian American myself, [00:07:28] it's sad for me to see fellow Indian Americans embrace and cozy up to this. To Trump, who and the Trump administration, which still is pretty open about its racism. That said, the H-1b visa was one of the major fuels by which the US economy [00:07:47] was able to boom because of its ability to attract high skilled workers from other parts of the world, particularly parts of South Asia, East Asia, and so on. However, as we know quite well, our economy is sick. [00:08:02] It's infected. It's not well, it's diseased. Right. And so there's always going to be this kind of clash or this tension between people saying, wait a second, the reason we elected you and this is the vast majority, I would say, or or majority of many of people who voted for Trump [00:08:19] is because the economy is sick for middle and working class people. So I think what you know, Elon and Vivek, I don't I'm not a big fan necessarily of both of them on many different levels. I think they're both recognizing that the only way the US economy will continue to thrive in its incredibly unequal and unjust ways, which is behind Trump's [00:08:38] election, is by expanding this program. And that's going to bring out racist responses like which what you had read out. But at the end of the day, Trump and all these folks running this administration, Vivek, Elon, etc. Are going to have to show whether they can deliver for the middle and working classes [00:08:56] for the so-called MAGA base, which is mainly working and middle class. And we've seen next to no evidence that they could do so from the first administration, where Trump passed the biggest tax cut for billionaires in the history of our country. And I don't see much evidence of this now, even though I'm happy about [00:09:16] the labor secretary, though, the National Labor Relations Board was scuttled. So I'm just getting at the point here that these flash points of elitism relative to populism are showing up now within this new emerging administration, because really, there's very little there's not really a better [00:09:31] adjective or or characterization of people like Ramaswamy and Musk other than the word elite. Yeah. And I'm going to briefly criticize Elon, but then I want to give you what Vivek is talking about, because he gets more into sort of the cultural side of why they think they can't turn to American workers or don't want to. [00:09:48] And then we can criticize him. I'm in a weird position where I guess, technically I agree with him in that I don't have any problem with H-1b visas. I don't think we're being invaded when talented engineers or coders want to come and work here. That's consistent with my view on basically most forms of immigration. [00:10:05] It's not consistent, by the way, with how Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy talk and think about most immigrants. They seem to acknowledge that we can be enriched economically, culturally, technologically with these certain migrants, but they don't seem to acknowledge that at every other rung [00:10:22] of the economic ladder, migrants coming in make our country stronger. And I wish that they could be a little more consistent about that. I also worry that some of this is about exploitation, that Elon Musk, we know how he treats his workers. He seems to despise humans as a necessary evil. [00:10:37] I think he sees some of these people that he brings in as more exploitable. You acknowledge that they might be able to be paid less. They might also be able to be worked far harder at threat of being deported. We know how he works. The few remaining engineers at Twitter and all that, and he constantly [00:10:53] talks about it's not just that Americans aren't talented enough. They're not motivated enough. They won't sleep, you know, five nights in a row at the Twitter headquarters or whatever. Like maybe he wants to. And so I have a little bit worried that there's an undercurrent of exploitation to this. But I guess ostensibly we agree in any. [00:11:10] Let me just say two quick things about that, John. One, I love your defense of immigrants overall, right? It's not just the high paid ones, the high skilled ones. ET cetera. I mean, look, if we're keeping it real and you want to be more specific, I would give credit to all the immigrants from all the different nations. [00:11:26] But Mexican immigrants built this country in so many ways. And we, instead of thanking them, we've, you know, lambasted them over and over again and try to drive them out. So in Latin American immigrants overall. So but but look at this, this is and then it put it puts the right wing [00:11:44] to a test in a different way, which is I thought you said you guys said you were against undocumented immigrants, because now all of a sudden it looks like you're against all immigrants because H-1b is perfectly legal way of, you know, getting a visa to this country. So let's be clear about it. [00:12:00] You know, undocumented immigrants is a different category. And but documented immigrants, I'm 100% in favor of in this country. And I think we should have more, not less. And but I like that they're finally realizing, yeah, Ellen and Vivek are part of the elites. [00:12:16] Now, just because you're an elite doesn't mean you're wrong about everything or that you're a bad person. I just agreed with Ellen and Vivek on the H-1b visas. Right. But I like that the right wing is going, oh, right. We have elites, too. To which I say, of course, Ellen was the number one donor to Donald Trump, [00:12:32] gave him over a quarter of $1 billion. And he didn't do that for his health. Yeah, but but I do want to get into the cultural argument that Ramaswamy is making. And then we can discuss that. So, and there had been a little bit of this in what Musk was saying, and Musk went off on this. He agreed with this tweet, referring to Americans as to our word [00:12:50] to be able to do this work. And you can't teach them in schools because they're the R word. And he had no, no issue with that whatsoever, which I find strange and noteworthy. But this is what Ramaswamy says. The reason top tech companies often hire foreign born and first generation engineers over Native Americans. [00:13:05] Is it because of an innate American IQ deficit? A lazy and wrong explanation? It comes down to the C word culture. Okay, our American culture has venerated mediocrity over excellence for way too long, at least since the 90s, and likely longer. That doesn't start in college. It starts young. A culture that celebrates the prom queen over the Math Olympiad champ [00:13:23] or the jock over the valedictorian will not produce the best engineers. If you grow up aspiring to normalcy, normalcy is what you will achieve. Now close your eyes and visualize which families you knew in the 90s or even now, who raised their kids according to one model versus the other. Be brutally honest. This can be our Sputnik moment. We've awakened from slumber before. Don't say woke and we can do it again. [00:13:42] Trump's election hopefully marks the beginning of a new golden era in America, but only if our culture fully wakes up a culture that once again prioritizes achievement over normalcy, excellence over mediocrity, nerdiness over conformity, hard work over laziness, and even on that nerdiness thing. You see the strike back from the other MAGA people, with Steve [00:14:00] Bannon implying something bad about nerds, as if he doesn't understand that he's just a politics nerd. Like, what does he think? He's a jock? In any event, the issue I have with this, I don't even agree with some of this. I do think that our culture has long like we don't generally deify [00:14:17] worship academics, thinkers, philosophers, scientists and all that. But I would also say that if you're going to be like doing a dissection of where our culture turned away from those sorts of heroes, or even just accepting them, like, do they know which party they're supporting? [00:14:34] Do they know what Fox News has spent the last three decades Doing? Do they know how implicitly anti-intellectual Donald Trump himself is? His circle is? They're the ones who've demonized not even just higher education anymore. It started with grad school, Turning Point USA. [00:14:52] Their stated mission is to make people lose faith in college. PragerU to make the very idea of education a joke. They've turned people against teachers, convincing them that they're if they're in higher education, they're Marxists. If they're in lower education, they're sexual predators. [00:15:07] They've turned people against doctors and scientists, academics of all stripes. If America no longer like, pushes its kids to to enter into these fields, do they get that they're cheering on the side of the aisle that has pushed that more than any other? [00:15:23] Feel free to disagree, but I kind of feel like the anti-intellectualism is coming from inside the house. Yeah, there's a lot of truth to that. So on top of that, look, I agree with Vivek, as I said earlier, that, hey, we don't like. It's good to celebrate nerds and people who don't conform. [00:15:41] And oftentimes in the past, although I think American culture has really changed on that, and it has accepted that a lot more than it used to in the old days. You beat up on the nerds and stuff. I don't think people do that anymore. I check with my kids all the time, like, that's weird and needless. Nobody does that anymore, right? Maybe. [00:15:57] But we live in LA, I don't know, right? So yes, people who worked hard in school should be celebrated, right? On the other hand, you don't have to beat up on average Americans. I love about average Americans. You know why? Because they're not average. And so what I mean by that is that we have a genetic lottery, guys, if we're keeping it real. So like, the elites like to pretend that they're they have a monopoly [00:16:16] on being on on wisdom and knowing what the right thing to do is. And golly gee, they just happen to set the rules on their own behalf with all their wisdom. And they say, well, that's the objective position. No, it's not right in reality, both in terms of genes for working hard [00:16:32] for geniuses in every way that's actually spread out all across the population. Okay, so that's why I love that Scotland is part of me. For me, the cornerstone of Western civilization. Scotland, started public schools. [00:16:48] And once they did, all of a sudden a whole bunch of geniuses popped up in Scotland, including Adam Smith, who wrote about capitalism. Why? Because the geniuses were always there. They just didn't have an opportunity. And so that's why I love standing up for the average American, because if you give them an opportunity, you're going to get all of those blossoming geniuses [00:17:06] all across the country. By the way, it's not just Western civilization. China did something similar for thousands of years where they would find the best and brightest in the different villages and towns and give them an education and then promote them up within their structure. So there's great examples all across the world, and we could focus on the [00:17:23] great positives that we have here, etc.. But guys, back to the H1-b visas and that idea of, of a culture that is hungry and wants to perform I. There's one thing Ellen's right about for sure. In a different tweet, he analogized this to a team and and I [00:17:40] thought that was a pretty good analogy because if you're in the NBA and you say, no, I don't want the best players from across the world, you're going to turn out Jokic. You're going to turn down the Greek freak. You're going to turn out literally the best players in the NBA. [00:17:57] There's also amazing American players in the NBA. But why would you limit yourself and your talent. And in the case of H-1b visas or other immigrants that are coming in that way, these are not just the brightest. They're the hardest working. In fact, we're being unfair to the rest of the world because we're taking [00:18:15] their top talent and bringing them here. But you get to be unfair like that when you set up an awesome country and they want to come here to take. Now let me say to the right wing, take the win, take the win. If all the greatest talent in the country is in the world is coming [00:18:31] here because they love this country. That's a huge win for us. But that doesn't mean you give up on, on, on Americans that are here. Let's emphasize working hard in school. Let's emphasize achievement, but not at the expense of others. Ramesh. Yeah. I want to just share one quick thing, which is, you know, just very personal. [00:18:49] My parents came to the US with H-1b visas, as I mentioned. They came to pursue education. And that's why we were able to grow up, you know, relatively middle class with the ability to be able to live in a place with decent public schools, [00:19:04] the ability to afford health insurance because of my father's employment and so on. Now, that is because we had those resources, right? My the ways in which I grew up and was raised were raised are probably somewhat similar to people like Vivek Ramaswamy. [00:19:20] But unlike Vivek and unlike most of us, I think what what, what what we're all talking about is that people have to be provided the opportunity to excel, the opportunity to achieve. It's not like all people are just are sort of coming in an equal way to the table. [00:19:38] It has to do with the opportunities that are provided. And I think the H-1b visas can cultivate a lot of this kind of high skill, high monetary kind of value that helps these companies, which is why corporate kind of leaders like, like Elon are so into it. [00:19:54] But I do want to really share this main, this main, main point, which is that, what we really need, I think more and more as a country is to remember what the what the writing was on the wall with this last election. There's an economic populism that is coming to bear. And whoever gets on the right side of this that uplifts all people, [00:20:13] uplifts the the dignity of work, or at least economically figures out a way to support people in this country. That's going to be the political position that wins at the end of the day. Yeah. But before we move on to because you mentioned, you know, people losing their some of their Twitter privileges, I just want to mention, I'm sure [00:20:30] a lot of people have talked about this. I just haven't seen it, so I have to bring it up on the show. Musk's analogy to, well, if you have a sports team, don't you just want the best people? I think that, like, I don't know if he's doing this on purpose, but it's almost like the most perfectly ironic metaphor to use in this case, because does [00:20:48] he not get that for decades and decades? We like many people. I'm not going to say we I wasn't even alive then, and I wouldn't have been a racist at that point anyway. We didn't want all the best people on the teams. We wanted the best white people on the teams, and we literally barred the best black players, Latino players, Asian players from playing. [00:21:06] We did not allow segregation there. And I would say that, like grand tradition in America is not totally gone. You could be the most badass possible gay soldier. They want to kick your ass out of the military. They we as a culture have been shooting ourselves in the foot [00:21:23] based on hierarchy and identity politics as long as we've been a culture to protect our own tiny little fiefdom, where we've carved up all the demographics, and this is the one I'm in, and I'm going to put that on top. And I don't care if we'd collectively be better if we had, you know, [00:21:39] a black point guard or whatever. I don't want him there because he's black. Like, does he get that? That's what our culture was up until not that long ago. And now we see that creeping back in. They want to ban people from participating, not because we'll be stronger as a result, but despite that, they don't care. [00:21:57] It's frustrating that that seems to be lost in this. And that's also the culture. He grew up in Feltham in South Africa with him. Remember, he grew up in apartheid South Africa. Yeah, yeah. Look, but America did get better and but John's right. I mean, he's comical as there's that great game where Kentucky plays this all black [00:22:16] team and they think, oh what a joke right. And the all black team just destroys them. And then people are like, whoa, black people can play basketball. It was just hilarious, right? And so in a similar way, like, oh, it turns out the rest of the world has amazing engineers. But guys, the one thing that the right wing populists are right about is [00:22:33] and I have a friend who's an engineer and started his own company, etc., went to great schools and he said, you know what? They lied to us. It turns out if you want to make money, you should have gone into finance, period. Right? They told us, be an engineer, you'll make a good living and stuff, and it's actually pretty hard to make a really good living as an engineer. [00:22:50] And so wouldn't it be amazing if we actually raised the salaries of engineers because engineers literally built this place? Yeah. 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