So Wicked Part one has been smashing box office records since the since it came out last month, becoming one of the top 50 highest grossing movies of all time in the US, with $292.4 million earned domestically. [00:00:15] But despite all of that success, it's being predicted that it could soon be banned for being too radical. So in a minute, we will tell you who is making this prediction and the reasoning behind it. But first, Jake, I know you've seen the movie. I've seen the movie. Did the movie strike you as being too radical? [00:00:31] You know, I'm super curious which way the right wing is reacting to this, because the movie is not about any political party, it's about outsiders, and the witch represents the outsiders. That's why I did see the movie. I loved the movie. [00:00:47] Adam McKay is a really interesting point about it. So let's talk about it and figure out which way this thing is going to go. Yeah. So the conversation surrounding wicked came up earlier this week when Adam McKay as as Jake, said the former SNL writer and director tweeted this. [00:01:03] He said, on a pure storytelling level, Wicked Part one is right up there as one of the most radical big studio Hollywood movies ever made. I know part two swings back to the center a little bit, but part one is nakedly about radicalization in the face of careerism, fascism, and propaganda. [00:01:22] What's really striking about Wicked Part one is that it's coming out now, when America has never been more right wing and propagandized. And yes, I know that theatrical production and the book are much older, so part of the timing is a coincidence, but still. [00:01:37] Well, McKay isn't the first person to see similarities between Oz and the United States of America, or even its political allegory. Constance Grady of Vox said this. She said, wicked the musical is based on a 1995 novel of the same title by Gregory Maguire and Anti-Fascist Treatise on Witch, in which the wizard [00:01:57] becomes a Hitler like despot. The musical wouldn't go quite so far when it debuted on Broadway in 2003, but it did get in a number of hits at the George W Bush administration, which had ordered the invasion of Iraq only months earlier. [00:02:12] In the present day, many people are now comparing the wizard in the film to Donald Trump. However, there are differing opinions on what way it goes politically. Director Jon M Chu isn't surprised by the discussion of politics, either. He's telling IndieWire, a charismatic leader who gaslights a community, [00:02:30] that this woman is wicked just because she's standing up for a marginalized group of people in the society. How could that be political? Chu argued the original Wizard of Oz movie, released on the heels of the 1930s Dust Bowl during the rise of fascism and on the eve of World War Two, [00:02:47] has always spoken to America in a time of transition. So when McKay brought this up on X, some users who initially ignored the film, believing it to just be another fantasy movie, Switch Lanes, which is when McKay made his bold prediction. [00:03:02] One user said really? Wow, I'm sorry. I didn't even think of seeing it when it was showing here in Dublin. It looked like more American fantasy franchise ringing and CGI fare to me. I'll have to see it when it gets to streaming. Thanks for the alternative perspective. [00:03:17] To which McKay responded, I think you'll be shocked if America keeps going on the track. It is. I wouldn't be surprised to see the movie banned in 3 to 5 years. Okay, now obviously it is a bold prediction, but McKay went on to defend his stance and explain it's bizarre how many people [00:03:35] think the possibility of movies, books music being banned in the US in the near future is a crazy idea. There's a whole crowd that really has zero idea what's going on. Big picture. In a later post, he compared the concept of this theoretical ban to legislation [00:03:52] the House is already pushing, citing the House GOP bill that would let Trump shut down nonprofits that he deems terrorist supporting organizations. Also adding, America has always gotten the Heisenberg blue meth propaganda. Okay, this is something that I think about quite a bit as far [00:04:09] as what's going through people's minds as they consume different types of media. You know, how are they interpreting it? Are they understanding and grasping the bigger themes? Do they even care about those bigger themes, and how are they perceiving it all in terms of the world and society and their own lives? [00:04:26] You know, wicked. I read the book must have been decades ago now, and I've been a fan of the musical since it came out. I can sing the whole show to you. I won't, but I can. But it was interesting to see how they were able to present. - Pulitzer. - Prizes, right? But it was interesting, you know, [00:04:41] because they were able to present certain ideas that were present in the book and the musical to a much wider audience now during a particularly contentious time in our nation's history. And I think to an extent, to a good extent, the ideas presented in the movie, the ideas that might be considered woke by some people are not new, right? [00:05:00] They're applicable to so many societies and so many different points in history. And I think that's why art is so universal. And you would hope that we would learn from history and we would, you know, gain some empathy from art. But I did see a comment that I wanted to read real quick. That kind of ties in a lot of this is from, I'm just me, and he's talking [00:05:17] about Trump and says, he's not a populist. He just uses the the talking points to hide, much like a German man once did. What socialist talking points? I'm not saying he is Hitler. I'm saying the playbook he's using is obvious. And I think, you know, the comparisons between Trump and the Wizard of Oz [00:05:35] and what the wizard actually is versus what he says, what he proclaims to be, and the way he portrays himself to the public. I think all of that is at least it's resonating with some people. Michael, we'll start with you. What do you think of all this? Do you think Adam McKay is potentially overreacting with all this? [00:05:51] Well, truthfully, I haven't seen. I'm seeing my mother is visiting. We're going to be seeing wicked this week. I'm probably the wrong person to say if this is going to be the thing that turns us into further the further banning of of media. But yeah, I mean, I think we've seen where they've gone with books [00:06:09] and with education and the notion that it's just going to stop at movies. I just can't speak to whether this movie is the one. And also when someone tweets, America has always gotten the Heisenberg blue math propaganda. I don't know what that means. So, so, but but I, you know, I do think [00:06:30] it's something that we always have to keep our antennas up for in this country, especially when the right winds, because the right has always and traditionally been the ones to ban, to, to ban books and to ban media. And truthfully, you have the purveyor of the words fake news, and that goes hand [00:06:49] in hand with other fascists in our our history and our recent history too, is where do they start? They start with the news. They start saying, don't believe what you are hearing. And didn't the wizard himself in you know, I haven't seen it for a while. Don't believe what's behind the curtain or something like what was the line? [00:07:05] Anybody? Something. Anyway, it doesn't matter. But it's the same idea is saying that you should not believe what you see and what you read and and taking things away from people that are going to change their mind to that. And I so I would imagine that it fits right in. [00:07:22] I just haven't seen wicked yet. Yeah. So so I saw it, I loved it. I think that, look, I like Adam McKay a ton. He's been on this show. He's a great progressive, cares so much about climate change. I think the movie Don't Look Up is brilliant. Among many other brilliant things that he's done. [00:07:39] I agree with him that, in a lot of ways, it's the most radical big studio Hollywood movie ever made, as he put it, because it's literally celebrates It's radicalism, right. But the one part and he's right about careerism and propaganda and and, you know, fascism can be interpreted a lot of ways. [00:07:57] And, and so, yeah, I, I certainly hear him on that, but I think that I'm going to take it in a little bit different direction. I think that a lot of people can see that movie and see into it what they want to see into it. And so I'll give you a right wing version of it, and then I'll give you my version [00:08:15] of interpreting wicked. Don't blow it though, because I haven't seen it yet. I hear you, I'm going to do the best I can by not spoiling it too much. Right? But the right wing can look at it and go, what are you guys talking about? Trump being the wizard. Biden's the Wizard of Oz. You know, you look behind the curtain and everybody knows this part of the story. [00:08:31] Obviously you look behind the curtain and it's the guy that told you was young and dynamic. But turns out it's not right. They tell you he's in charge, but then you find out he's in mental decline and we don't know who's in charge. They told you what an expert and how amazing he was. [00:08:46] And then you finally see him for who he really is, and he's not that at all. And the which is a radical outsider. But remember, the right wing populists believe that they are radical outsiders. So there's a lot that they can relate to in the movie. And that's why I think a lot of Republicans do like this movie. [00:09:03] So that's why it's doing so well in the country with everyone of different political persuasions. But it couldn't just be that it's I haven't seen it again, but it's just a good movie. And all movies that are good movies do well with everybody. Yeah, that's true, Michael, and we shouldn't lose track of that. [00:09:20] Obviously the quality of the movie makes a giant difference, right? But but Adam McKay is right that it's also resonating at this time for a lot of different reasons. Right? He says it's resonating because Trump is in and there's, you know, fascism, propaganda, careerism, etc. But I you know, we'll try to get Adam on the show. [00:09:37] I don't again, I don't know if he's willing to do it at this point, but or if he just said his piece. But but what I would argue is that from my point of view and you see how everybody looks at it from their own lens, right? I viewed the the witch as, yes, an outsider who's trying to do something [00:09:53] different, not obeying, not conforming. And I love that, and I really relate to it. And then all the normies attack, right? Oh, how dare you stay within the system, do what's normal and that's the careerism, etc., right? [00:10:08] Obey, obey, obey. And she won't obey. And so I view the wizard as the establishment. And because the establishment is always my whole life has said we know better and we are the wise ones. [00:10:23] We are the educated ones. We are the elites. They won't say elites, but that's the driving force. So and it's always talking from the mountain top. You guys don't know you outsiders. We insiders, we know. And look, I've gotten some version of that speech a lot of times in my life. [00:10:39] This is above your pay grade. Oh, you haven't been read into that. Oh, please. Barack Obama is playing four dimensional chess, and you wouldn't understand. Right. Some I mean, so many times. And then to me, the most pivotal moment is look, at some point, you know, [00:10:55] the witch is going to rebel. She's a witch, right? So hopefully, and again, not much of a spoiler there. But when she does, as my daughter says, I don't want to spoil the beans. Okay. But but when she does, there's a critical moment where the people in power, what do they do? [00:11:11] And watch for this in the movie, they grab the mic in that moment where they grab the mic. If they say, hey, the witch is a good guy and try to help her on her quest. And the real issue is the wizard. Well, then everybody's going to try to help the witch, but instead they grab [00:11:27] the mic and say, she's a terrible person. She's betrayed us. She's looking to hurt you guys. Everybody attack her. Okay, so to me and I talk to my kids about this after we saw the movie. That's the most important moment in the movie. Because that one person, which I would say in our case in this analogy, [00:11:46] is mainstream media telling you who the good guys are and who the bad guys are, whether it's honest or dishonest, right? Makes all the difference because that is what the people hear. If they heard a positive message about her, they would have reacted positively. [00:12:01] They heard a negative message, so they react negatively. So that Mike is absolutely critical. And but I acknowledge that I'm seeing it from my perspective and I can see how the right would see it. I could see how the left would see it. But me as a populist, I see that it is a perfect analogy for the establishment and [00:12:19] mainstream media, which Michael, I think is thinking, of course you do, right? - Yeah. - Well, I mean, of course you do. I just think this is an annoying story, but I, you know, so like, that's really the bottom line is that I just I've said my piece on it [00:12:36] and I'll watch the movie and I'm sure. But I'm curious. Michael. Yeah. After you watch it. What? Your interpretation. - Okay, I'll. - Call you and tell you. Okay, good. So? So you saw it? Yes. What do you think of my interpretation? - I you're. - Allowed to say it's. [00:12:52] - Annoying, by the. - Way. - No, I loved this movie. - I want to go see it again. I'm obsessed with Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande. I, I can't I can talk about this movie all day, but the point about careerism, I was I was happy that he brought that up in his tweets. [00:13:07] And Janki also just mentioned that because I don't think that aspect of it really gets discussed as much. It was kind of a smaller point in the movie, but I mean, it it's kind of like if you blink, you miss it, but it's there. It's very much there. And at the beginning of the movie, you see Glinda and she is now a public [00:13:23] figure, a politician, if you will. Maybe I don't want to equate her to anyone, but we'll for now. I'm not going to do that. But she, you know, she comes whenever there's there's disruption in the town. She comes and she addresses them. She is their public figure. Right? So she has to play this balancing act between knowing what really happened [00:13:41] and knowing who this person really is, but still having to say all these things and do all these things to appease the public and to maintain some kind of order. And at the, you know, the whole show is a flashback, explaining how Glinda and Elphaba were friends growing up and where they split, where their paths diverge. [00:13:59] And that's where the movie ends. And, you know, in Defying Gravity, at the beginning of the song, they're fighting because, you know, they both realize that the wizard is a fraud. And, you know, Madame Morrible, she was in on it the whole time and all these things. And Glinda is imploring Elphaba to say sorry [00:14:17] and just you can go be with the Wizard. You can have everything you ever wanted. Just say you're sorry. And Elphaba says to her, I hope you're happy that you would grovel in submission to feed your own ambition. So Glinda is seeing all these things, but she still wants to work with the Wizard, [00:14:33] and she still wants to be trained and tutored and mentored by Madame Morrible, even though she knows that Madame Morrible is horrible. Right. So there's all these things, and I think that that is still very much an active part of our modern day society, right? [00:14:49] We have influencers who are just taking talking points literally from Russia and just giving it out to the American people because it will benefit their careers to do so. And we have all kinds of people on, you know, various news programs, whether it's left wing or right wing or, you know, like the more center ones, [00:15:07] they all have these talking points, a lot of them, which come from corporate headquarters, right, or from these billionaires, and they're delivering it to the people, whether or not they believe in those talking points or not. And, you know, I'll say it again, I do love working here because we don't have any of that. [00:15:23] Right? I can say whatever I want on this program, and I'm not going to, you know, even if I if you disagree with me, that's fine. And I think that that's something that is, you know, overlooked a little bit in our society that all these people who we are listening to are compromised.