Joining us now is Charlamagne tha God, host of The Breakfast Club and also the author of his latest book, Get Honest or Die Trying. Charlamagne, thank you so much for joining us. - Hey. - Thank Anna. How are y'all, man? My favorite my favorite news network on the planet. - The Young Turks love. - To hear that. [00:00:15] I love to hear that. All right. So, Charlamagne, look, I appreciated your book, especially because, you know, the thesis, the main point that you're making is that we need to engage in deeper conversations in good faith. But I'm curious if, you know, especially following the results [00:00:35] of the presidential election, if you have come to terms with and realize that Democrats aren't really interested in having conversations, they're interested in playing the blame game. They're interested in providing cover for the failures of the Democratic Party. That's my take. But I'm curious if you agree with it. [00:00:53] Yeah. I don't like broad generalizations, you know, even though, you know, we do say the Democratic Party, I think there are there are a few in there that still want to have honest conversations. I just think that, you know, some of them got to have the balls to stand up and be able to challenge the party, whatever, whatever that may be. [00:01:10] Now, I don't even know what the Democratic Party is at this particular moment. They don't have any real leadership. They don't have any, you know, real, real messaging. They don't seem to have a real sense of direction at this point. So now would be as good a time as any to stand up and, you know, challenge [00:01:26] what was of the Democratic Party. Yeah. So that's a great point. And that's exactly what we're trying to do here, which is one challenge that we thought was the Democratic Party, too, is potentially rebuild that party into something that makes sense and can win elections and actually represents their voters. [00:01:42] Right? So, look, I'll break it down into the three categories, Charlemagne. Then I'm curious, you know which one you think you're closer to. Nobody has to be in any specific bucket or exclusively in that bucket, but I just want to get your take on it. So one is what we normally call the establishment, right? [00:01:57] Joe Biden, Hillary Clinton, Kamala Harris, the people who take tons of corporate donor money, I think. And I'm buying biasing you a little bit here, but I think they serve the donor class. Overall, mainstream media is on their side. ET cetera. Then there's the identitarian left. [00:02:15] That is a little bit more. You could use whatever terms you like. Extreme radical Max. But but hey, look for identity politics, right? Hey, we need, you know, and have a certain ideology they will not waver from. And then there's a third wing, which is kind of the economically [00:02:31] populist wing of Bernie Sanders 2016. So out of those three, do you think that that makes sense as a way of like looking at it? And out of those three, do you associate with one more than the other? It would probably be the economy, because I feel like, you know, [00:02:46] there's nothing that moves in this country that isn't rooted in money. You know, Wu-Tang clan said cash rules everything around me, and it's a fact. I don't care if you're talking about education. I don't care if you're talking about, you know, health care. I don't care if you're talking about housing. Whatever it is, it's got to be rooted in the economy. I mean, that's something Bill Clinton coined in the in the 90s. [00:03:03] Right. It's the economy, stupid. And I mean, if you look at the main issue people voted for in 2024, it would have to be the same. So if I was rooting in any one of those three things, it would definitely be, be the economy. - Yeah. - So let me follow up on that. So of course I agree. And I framed it in a certain way. I get that right. [00:03:22] But, New York Times just did a story today about, oh, it turns out that the Democrats lost young males who voted for Bernie Sanders. They have now got some of them have gone over to MAGA. And that's because of what you just said. It's the economy, stupid. And they said, well, maybe it's sexism, but they keep saying [00:03:39] that it's not what it really is, is that they're bothered that neither party is actually giving them anything that makes sense economically. And they've got high housing prices, high health care prices, high everything, prices and low wages. And that's what's driving them to discontent with the Democratic Party. [00:03:55] That resonated with me. Did that resonate with you? Absolutely. Because when I'm having conversations, The beauty of doing morning radio is that we I get to talk to everyday working class people, like every day. And, you know, I do a lot of different community initiatives from South Carolina to New Jersey. [00:04:10] So I really get to talk to the working class, and I don't get that sense of, hey, we didn't vote for this person because she was a woman. I mean, to be honest with you, I knew more women, it seemed like, who didn't like Kamala Harris than men. Everything was rooted in the economy. [00:04:28] I don't care what it was, whether it was, you know, the border. And they were saying that, you know, these these illegal immigrants are coming over and getting more resources than people who had been living in these communities forever. You know, whether it was people who couldn't find jobs, whether it was the cost of groceries, every single thing was rooted in the economy. [00:04:46] And I say it all the time, man, you know, what people want in this country is people want to have some money in their pocket and they want to feel safe. That's it. Whoever can provide that will, will, will always have the ears of the people. Okay. I actually want you to elaborate on that further, because I think some of the best moments on The Breakfast Club in this election [00:05:05] process was when young black men would call in to explain why it was that they had turned on the Democratic Party. And I find their perspective incredibly important and very interesting. And I feel that they were just kind of left behind by the Democratic Party. [00:05:21] And, you know, one of the things that would come up over and over again was the immigration issue. And I'm not under the impression at all that these are anti-immigrant individuals, but people living in places like Chicago, for instance, who have seen their resources, [00:05:37] which are usually used to nickel and dime the local black community there essentially be used for the influx of migrants who came in federal government run by Joe Biden. And Kamala Harris just kind of neglected the issue and allowed these municipalities [00:05:54] to struggle with the issue on their own. And the thing that frustrates me, Charlamagne, is that if you are someone who identifies as on the left, regardless of where you fall on that left wing spectrum, if you have the audacity to bring up this very real issue, well, I mean, [00:06:11] you know how Sunny Hostin will treat you if you bring it up on The View. Right. And I think that's an issue. I think that's a problem. The Democrats seem to not ever want to do a little bit of self-reflection to understand, okay, what can we do better the next time around? Instead, I see them kind of lashing out and blaming everyone else for the loss. [00:06:28] - What do you think? - I agree. I was a victim of it. I mean, they lost that battle a couple of years ago. I remember a couple of years ago when Governor Greg Abbott and Governor Ron DeSantis were putting, you know, the migrants on busses and planes and sending them to so-called sanctuary cities. And then, you know, as soon as they got there, those so-called sanctuary cities, [00:06:45] they weren't so they weren't so sanctimonious, were they? They were literally saying they were literally saying, hey, no, send them back, send them back. You can't come, you can't come. And I said back then I thought that was evil genius. Yes, it was inhumane and cruel to do that. But on the flip side, you did say you were sanctuary cities [00:07:03] and you said you did say you wanted these people until you got them. And so then when they when they when they realized it was an issue and they were saying, don't come, it made the Republicans look like they had it right the whole time. I remember earlier this year, January, I was doing exactly what you just did, [00:07:19] and I was talking to my activist friends in Chicago, like my my, my, my homies. And, she was going to city council meetings every week complaining about what was happening. And it wasn't even just about the fact that, you know, the migrants were coming over, that she was just complaining that they're [00:07:34] getting more resources than we are. I had a guy, he he, he works in a parking garage in New York. He saw me one day and he came to me in tears, talking to me about how, you know, there were gangs that were coming over, you know, tearing up his neighborhood. And he was saying, he knows it's because the border needs to be closed. [00:07:52] This is a black woman I'm talking about and a Spanish man. These people were not MAGA in any way, shape or form. They were just talking to people about what was going on in their communities. In New York City, Mayor Adams led a bunch of migrants stay in a school overnight [00:08:07] and made the kids that went to the school, do home homeschooling that day because he needed to give the migrants housing for the night. People were calling into the radio station complaining about that. So when I get on the air and I say that, or if I'm in an interview with, I think at the time I was doing an interview with Fox News and they asked me [00:08:24] a simple question do I think the border is going to be an issue come November? I told them everything I just told y'all. Next thing I know, MSNBC has a headline that says Charlamagne tha God is spreading MAGA messaging that is not MAGA. That is not MAGA messaging. And that is Democrats dismissing what their base was actually telling them [00:08:43] because they already had labeled the issue of the border a Republican MAGA issue. And it wasn't. It was an American issue, and it was people in their party. People in their base are used to being their base, complaining about it, and they didn't listen. So I have to just follow up real quick on what the gentleman told you about what [00:08:58] he's experiencing in his local community. So he says that his community is being torn apart by by gangs coming in. Was he credible because we've covered similar stories? Because I think it's important to give these local communities a voice and more importantly, allow for the Democratic Party to realize what they're getting [00:09:16] wrong to maybe, you know, recalibrate. But when we covered that story, you know, left wing shows like Majority Report, for instance, said that that's not true. It's completely debunked. There is no problem with migrant gangs coming in. So did you find the individual that was speaking to you credible, [00:09:32] or do you think he was just making it up or bought into right wing hysteria? He was completely credible. I see him all the time now. Not only was he credible, he wanted me to come with him, you know, to his community. And not only was he credible, you know, he was willing to work with law [00:09:49] enforcement, you know, to get these people out of his community, like like he was so credible that, you know, the next time I came to him about following up on some of the things that he said. He didn't want any problems because he was like, I'm about to start working [00:10:06] with law enforcement to handle that issue. So it's like, yeah, why wouldn't he be credible? Like and that's what I mean when I say, like, we dismiss, you know, these these people like, why would any Democrat or any media outlet like dismiss this person's claims? How about send a field reporter out there and go see for yourself. [00:10:22] Yeah. Yeah, I love it. So look, Charlemagne, we we get along so well because we agree so much, and and like you were talking about the bussing on the first day that Greg Abbott started bussing folks from Texas to other states. I said, look, it's a smart strategy. [00:10:39] And I remember even Anna was surprised that I said that. And everybody was surprised. I'm like, look, we we have a undocumented immigrant issue in this country. Why should only the border states deal with it? And if your sanctuary cities, it makes sense. You know, I don't sanction the way that they did it, etc., just like you said. [00:10:57] Right. So but we but we were told to shut that conversation down. Of course we didn't. You didn't. And that's why we're considered heretics in a lot of ways. And that's why mainstream media oftentimes smear us, etc.. But I want to go. I say that as a setup to what you talked about in the book, right? [00:11:15] Get honest or die lying is is the book. And the essence of it is conversations. So you say, don't do the small talk. Do the real talk. Right. And so but on mainstream media by figures like Joy Reid, you know, it was being spread that, hey, when it comes to Thanksgiving, [00:11:31] don't go to Thanksgiving with MAGA family and either exclude them from your Thanksgiving dinners or don't go to their Thanksgiving dinners. I think that's super harmful to the country, because then we're going to get into our different tribes and never talk to each other and begin to see each other as enemies. [00:11:48] - Curious what your take on it is? - I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think it's one of the most ridiculous conversations, because when people were telling me over the last couple of years that they were leaning towards Trump or they were leaning towards the Republican Party. [00:12:03] I didn't, you know, shut them down. I didn't tell them that they're wrong. I asked a simple question. And that question is why? And I remember having a conversation with Larry King a long, long time ago. And he always told me the most important question to always ask is why? And so when I started asking why is when I started to understand, you know, what [00:12:21] people were wanting to vote for him for, and they weren't voting for him because, you know, they they love him or he's some beloved figure. They were voting for him because they just thought he was better on on these issues, which is the economy and the border. And another reason, I think that that's just a ridiculous, you know, thing to say [00:12:37] is because, man, yes, I voted for Vice President Kamala Harris. You know, as we all know, there are millions of people in this country who say that they're funding a genocide. Like who? Who can't stand the fact that they give so much money, [00:12:55] you know, to Israel's military. I would I would hope that, you know, my, the my Muslim brothers and sisters, my Arab brothers and sisters don't hate me or don't ever want to speak to me because I voted, you know, for the Democratic Party. And I know that they're so against the Democratic Party. [00:13:11] And, you know how they support Israel's military. So it goes both ways, is what I'm simply saying. You may not like Trump supporters for something. And guess what? There's people who don't like you for, you know, who you chose to vote for as well. Yeah. I mean, I just think if we're going to live in a in a system [00:13:29] that values the democratic process, we have to respect that people are going to come to their own conclusions about which candidate is the best for them. And so I didn't vote for Kamala Harris. I also didn't vote for Donald Trump. I had a deep issue with the, you know, Israel question and what's been happening [00:13:46] with the US government funding, you know, the absolute terror that's taking place in Gaza. You know, earlier it was in Lebanon. Now there's a very weak ceasefire in place. But you get the picture. But I don't begrudge you for voting for Kamala Harris. Right. That was the right decision for you. [00:14:02] And the thing that I actually take much deeper issue with is the culture on the left in general, that essentially tells people to bubble yourself away from anyone who disagrees, which leads to less understanding. [00:14:17] I think in order to be a strong party, you need to understand what motivates people to vote for the other side. What are the arguments? What is the other side doing that seems to be appealing to voters? And this like weird, willful ignorance, this culture of willful ignorance on the [00:14:33] left has led to the demise of the left, and people seem to be unwilling to accept that. I don't think that the majority of American voters on the other side are bad people at all. I want to understand them, and I want us to all respect each other and respect the decisions we make for ourselves in this democratic process. [00:14:51] But by opening up dialog and conversations, I think that it would actually allow the Democratic Party to maybe realize that they've done things in a way that is not appealing to American voters, and they need to recalibrate some of their policies. But again, that would take some humility, that would take some self-awareness. [00:15:09] And for some reason, I don't know, the party, the establishment members of the party have really moved away from that. - That's more of a. - That's why they lost. Go ahead. That's why they lost, and they lost because they put themselves in a bubble and they put themselves in such a bubble and such an echo chamber that they don't even know what people outside of that bubble [00:15:26] and echo chamber are talking about. I was having this conversation with them. I was saying that, you know, man, and I was saying it publicly, too. I said, you know, I feel like a lot of the energy and the enthusiasm that exists for the vice president is largely within the party. [00:15:42] It's largely within that bubble. I don't necessarily feel it, you know, when I'm out and about. And now that we got more things to compare it to, I remember saying this don't feel like President Obama in 2008. This feels more like, you know, Hillary Clinton in 2016. [00:15:59] I was I was saying that and I even I even heard Gavin Newsom on his podcast. He said the same thing. He said they were out on their governor's tour and, you know, it was, you know, him and Governor Gretchen Whitmer and Governor Josh Shapiro, Governor Wes Moore. And he said they were going to all of these curated events, right? [00:16:15] So they would pull up to these places that, you know, Democrats had, like barbershops that they had already, you know, scoped it out, had the people that they wanted in there going to these, these curated rallies. And he was like, that's still our bubble. So they weren't aware of what was going on outside of the bubble, and not knowing [00:16:32] what was going on outside of the bubble is what caused them to lose, if you ask me. So again, that's a similar dynamic that your show has with our show, which is that you take callers. We get tens of thousands of comments every single day on YouTube, social media, etc. [00:16:48] So we have this umbilical cord to the audience and allows us to see where it's going. And so we're both of us were trying to warn them, hey, your base is slipping away from you. And they and they thought we were the heretics, that we were the. No, we're just. We were the ones trying to warn you that you were going in the wrong direction. [00:17:05] But I see some upsides to in in what the core of the complaints were. Right. Which is the economy and the border. So yeah, Trump can take that in a very bad direction, but at least like it wasn't [00:17:20] that racism and sexism got elected. Got him elected. It was the economy in the border. Right. And sometimes there's some, you know, some of those things cross over, etc.. But this idea that the establishment Democrats and media has that know the other side is just evil. [00:17:35] So I guess evil one is absurd. It's totally absurd. That's because they refuse to listen to their base, to actual voters, etc. And that's because almost everyone else in the media is elitist, right? And so they view like talking to a real person or a populist [00:17:51] is like some sort of crime against, you know, humanity or media etc. And it's and so it's leading them astray. Anyways, that's a long setup too. So now that Trump is in office and the brother likes being popular, right? So there is some potential significant downsides of Trump administration [00:18:11] and maybe some potential upsides. Right. Because of that thirst to be popular and maybe fix the things that got him elected the economy, the border, etc.. So what is the thing that you think might be a surprising upside of the Trump administration? [00:18:26] And what is the thing you're most worried about with the Trump administration? Well, there's a few things that I think. I think there's a few things that could be upsides. You know, number one, he could want to just prove all his political opponents wrong. So for, you know, everybody that was out there, including myself, you know, [00:18:42] who were calling him a fascist and, you know, an authoritarian. And, you know, he and we weren't saying these things for no reason. We were saying these things because of the things that were were coming out of his mouth. But he may want to just prove everybody wrong. And, I mean, he's in a position right now where he's got control of, you know, [00:18:58] all all the branches of government. We know the Supreme Court is his right. And you you play around. Alito and Thomas will probably retire. You know, Sotomayor is doing the typical Democrat thing and being stubborn and not moving. So he'll probably end up getting to add another, you know, Supreme Court justice. [00:19:15] But that's a lot of power, right? So when you have all of that power, your people are expecting you to govern. And I mean, we haven't seen Republicans, you know, govern for the people I in my lifetime. I can't even think if ever. [00:19:32] Right. So I think that, you know, we could be in a situation where, 18 months after, you know, inauguration, the if he implements those tariffs, the, the prices of goods could be sold through the roof that everybody that went out [00:19:48] there and voted for him on the economy, they're going to be pissed off at him and they're going to flip on him. But the reality is, are the Democrats in position to even recover that fumble that could happen because I mean, that's that's the biggest the biggest downside I see, the biggest downside I see [00:20:04] is that so many people went out there and voted for, you know, the the economy. And he may not deliver on that just because if you look at what any economist says, you know, those tariffs are going to be terrible for, for for our country. So that's the biggest, the biggest the biggest upside is [00:20:20] that he has so much power. But also the biggest downside is that he has so much power. Because if he actually delivers for the American people and they start to feel more relief, you know, in their pockets and they start to feel, you know, more secure in their neighborhoods, man, the Republican Party [00:20:36] could be in power for a very, very, very, very, very long time. But if he doesn't do those things, you know, it could be very short lived. But are the Democrats even in position to recover that fumble? I don't I don't think so. I mean, it's remarkable how much we agree. [00:20:52] I mean, we normally do tough interviews, but we just keep on agreeing because, yeah, the fact that he wants to be popular could be a real force for good, and I don't think that almost anyone else on the Democratic side recognizes that yet, other than Bernie Sanders and Ro Khanna and yeah, and his obsession with wanting [00:21:11] to be, you know, have as much power as possible can lead in a very bad direction. But I also agree with you, Charlamagne, that that in order for the Democrats to pick up that fumble first, they got to let go of the donor cash. As long as they're just holding on to the donor cash as tightly as they can, [00:21:28] they're never going to be able to pick up a Republican fumble because they're too obsessed with, oh, what are the billionaires want? And I got to serve the billionaires. So it's that party. That party is not interesting. So they better turn the eff around before they hit another iceberg and another one, because then otherwise we're just stuck with the Republicans. [00:21:45] And that's that's a terrible place to be. We need two vibrant. Y'all know The Young Turks Network is the only network I ever hear talk about the Democrats in the donor class. I mean, I've heard Bernie Sanders say it, but it feels like nobody I've never hear this on CNN. I never hear this conversation on MSNBC. [00:22:02] I only hear it on the Young Turks Network. And I and I feel like, you know, somebody needs to start bringing I mean, Bernie does. Bernie definitely brings those conversations to those networks. But somebody really needs to start having that conversation with them in a real way because, you know, to to the point that y'all always make here, the people are going to always rebel [00:22:20] against the establishment. And one, one form of messaging, you know, that Donald Trump has had since 2016. And I don't know how the country, you know, has been convinced that a white male billionaire is somehow for the people. But he has convinced them of it. And he said he's going to drain the swamp. [00:22:37] And he says that we need to, you know, get rid of establishment politics. And they've bought into it. And he's the Democratic Party has been put into a corner and painted in the corner as being the establishment party who is beholden, to, to the, to the, to the donor class. [00:22:52] And I that that is a very, very, very hard tag to shake once once you're labeled that. Charlemagne. We always love having you on. Love the conversation and keep doing what you're doing. I love when you go on other shows and you speak your truth. Everyone check out his book, Get honest or Die trying. [00:23:09] Why small? Lying? - I'm sorry. - That's the twist. Die lying. My bad. Why? Small talk sucks. It's. It's an excellent book. And I, again, really do appreciate the message that you're trying to put out there with this book. Charlene, thank you again. Hope you come back soon. Thank you for having me. I love you all, man. [00:23:25] I love the Young Turks. Y'all are the best cable news platform on the planet today. If you want truth, you come to the Young Turks. - Thank you. - Love. And everybody check out Breakfast Club too. Thanks for watching The Young Turks. Really appreciate it. Another way to show support is through YouTube memberships. 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