Tara Palmeri joins me. She's an independent journalist, author of the Red Letter on Substack, host of the Tara Palmeri Show. But she was also at ABC news, Politico, CNN, New York Post, Washington Examiner, you name it. She was a white House reporter covering the Trump administration [00:00:17] in the first term for Politico. And Sean Spicer said, quote, she's an idiot with no real sources. Which is hilarious. Tara, thanks for joining us. And I'll ask you right away. What do you what do you say to Sean Spicer back? [00:00:33] I just say consider the source. - Is he suing. - You or something? He threatened to, but, Yeah, that that went away pretty quickly. I don't think it would hold up in court. And also, again, consider the source Sean Spicer. [00:00:53] So, yeah, I hear you. We actually had him on the show recently. We should get you guys together. Or maybe we shouldn't. I don't know about that one. I don't know why I got under his skin. I gotta say, it was. It was really strange to me. I was he really just didn't like me very much. [00:01:11] - And I felt like I was pretty fair, but. - Yeah. So. Tara, that's actually part of what I want to start with. You also covered the Epstein files, and I want to get to that, too. That's super interesting. But, so we had on here Sam Donaldson, probably nearly 20 years ago on The Young Turks, and he told a great story [00:01:29] about Roone Arledge, legendary, you know, head of ABC news for a long time. That when Sam Donaldson was the, white House reporter for ABC at the time, whenever Reagan, called to complain about Donaldson, Roone Arledge would give him a raise. [00:01:45] - And then later. - Sam. - That's the way it should. - Be. Yes. So. And later, when he covered the Clinton administration, Roone Arledge did the same exact thing. So it didn't matter if it was a Republican or a Democrat, but if the administration complained about it, you got a raise. So I'm a little afraid that we've lost those days. [00:02:01] But you've covered it, you know. You've been in a lot of mainstream media organizations or legacy media or whatever you want to call them. So what's your sense of it? Are we still as aggressive against both parties and the powerful or not as much? It's hard because there are these very insider organizations now. [00:02:21] There's so many of them. It's so fragmented and they really are selling on access. Right? There's just so many news organizations, from Politico to Punchbowl to Axios, and everybody is just trying to get that last scrap, that last little scoop. [00:02:39] Right. And everybody wants access. And President Trump is obviously not only threatening to cut off access, but he's also threatening to sue on top of all of it and is suing. Look what happened with CBS having to settle. And so it's putting these major news organizations in a position [00:02:57] that is not choosing news right there, choosing their business over, the news, actual, you know, investigative journalism and and bringing information to the public. I think and that's not to say, you know, that everyone is corrupt [00:03:15] and you can't believe anything that you read in the news. I do think there are a lot of really well-meaning journalists, but I think sometimes when the story gets all the way to management, they can slow roll it. If they know it's going to be a problem, they look at you like you are a problem. When you bring in the hard stories, it would be a lot easier for them [00:03:31] if you didn't. And so you really have to find some bosses that really believe in you that that want to make trouble. - I mean, a good journalist makes trouble. - Yes. Yes. Couldn't agree more. All right, so let's break that down because you said a lot of interesting things there. So people often talk about access, but I think the folks at home, [00:03:50] they don't know why the media organizations are obsessed with access. Why? What is it about access that's so important to these media organizations? I personally don't understand why they're so obsessed with access to President Trump. When he tweets everything out, there is no mystery. [00:04:05] There is no like he he answers the phone for anyone. I called him two weeks ago. He answered the phone and we spoke. I mean, he's literally the most successful person of all time. So this idea of trying to get in with the administration is silly. Plus, I don't think he really respects journalists too that are like that are [00:04:23] playing just for access to him. He, he's he wants to be loved. Like that's part of the Trump psychology, right? Trying to win daddy back. And that includes with journalists. Why do you think Maggie Haberman has been one of the most successful journalists? At the New York Times? President Trump can't win her over. [00:04:40] And, you know, their relationship goes way back. Actually, Maggie and I used to work in the same newsroom at the New York Post, and that's when I met Donald Trump when I was 22 years old. And he used to call me all the time and ask me to write about him running for president. And I literally had to say, Mr. Trump, we can't write about you anymore [00:04:56] running for president because you're hot. And so that's all to say is like this person, this president, his his drug is media like that is his heroin. Yeah. He loves to talk to journalists. That's why he picks up the phone at midnight. First of all, Tara, he called you when you were 22. All the time. [00:05:16] - Wow. - I was working at page six. I was working at page six, which is in the New York. To him being in the tabloids in the gossip column. - And there was nothing higher. - Oh, for sure. I was the 22 year old working at Page Six. Yes. Okay. And both of those things are things he's very attracted to anyways. [00:05:33] But you're right, the page six stuff with Trump is hilarious. When he would pretend to be John Barron and call in about how he was dating Madonna and stuff doesn't get any funnier. He never. He stopped. He stopped pretending with me. I think he was at his political stage at that point and thought like, write this down. Like I am about to be the president of the United States. [00:05:50] It was not. It was less about his love life. He was married to Melania. I guess his Playboy days were allegedly behind him. Not so much as we saw, but you know. - Yeah it was it. - Was a bit of a different agenda. But but. Okay so with Trump you don't need that much access. [00:06:05] And he's going to give it to you anyway. But is it because the the editors, the publishers think overall in politics, breaking a story is so important to their business model. And the only way to break stories is if you have access to the politicians [00:06:21] with those stories. Is that why they're catering to them more? I think so. I also think with President Trump, I mean, there's it just gets so much more complicated to I think you saw what happened with Politico, where they cut the subscriptions, that the government agencies [00:06:39] had to the Politico Pro that's a huge part of their business model. He can be vindictive. He cut the Associated Press out of the the pool and the Associated Press. Their business model relies on them putting out wires, being present, [00:06:54] physically present at events. And if they're not able to be there to cover them, but that puts them at a huge disadvantage when they're competing against Reuters. And so I just think he really knows how to play with the business interests of the press. And I've always believed, though, Access Journalism is not the best journalism. [00:07:11] Even when Spicer and I like, I'm not even going to go into it. But even when I was reporting mostly from the outside of the white House, I still felt that I was still breaking stories because I had more time to pick up the phone and or to go out and meet with people [00:07:29] who don't want to be seen talking to me. Right. I mean, those are the best sources, and that's those are the best stories. I mean, it's the real shoe leather journalism. The people who are sitting in the briefing room, raising their hand and asking the question in front of everyone in America. The performance of it all, the performative nature of it. [00:07:45] They're not breaking any big story that, you know, the people who are breaking the big stories, they're behind the scenes, hitting the phones and trying to get the scoop. And I think what you see in the a lot of the briefing room is jousting. It's important. It's important jousting. [00:08:00] We need that for public debate, and we need to hold people in power to account. I would never say it's not important, but there's there's a place for all of it. And I think we all just need to understand where we fit into this ecosystem and make sure that the business interests don't, [00:08:16] they don't become more important than the public interest, which is public service, which is giving information, delivering information. But yeah, access is journalism has always been a problem. Yeah. But so you mentioned they might slow roll some hard stories. [00:08:31] So in this era it's easy to kind of figure out what a hard story might be. Something critical of Trump. Right. But what can you give us outside of Trump minus Trump. Examples of what might be hard stories where they'd go, this is going to cause some issues for us. [00:08:49] That's it's hard to say because I haven't worked in a newsroom in a while that, That. I mean, when I, I remember when I worked at Politico, for example, and I was covering Joe Biden and I broke the story about Hunter Biden and the gun and really [00:09:06] the thing that got him indicted. That was a that took a very long time to get that published. I got the feeling that it was being slow rolled. It was at the beginning of the administration. A lot of my colleagues didn't like it. I mean, newsrooms are political on both sides, and, I've never been one [00:09:22] to pick a side based on politics or who's in power and who's not. I don't like groupthink, and I tend to gravitate gravitate towards the stories that don't are outside of the groupthink or, maybe others are are a little afraid to touch, but I've seen it on both sides now. [00:09:41] I was I was only at puck for, I think like a month or two into this Trump administration. But I never felt that they that they tried to stop me from reporting, anything really. I was pretty tough on the on the Trump campaign. [00:09:57] Although I was honest, I was like I was one of the few reporters that was saying they're winning. People hated that. And people hated. - When you reported. - That. But it was true. - Yeah. - I was like, this is what's happening. And I even on Reddit, people are like, what's wrong with this woman? [00:10:13] We hate her. And then, guys, this is the these are sometimes, you know, it's an inconvenient truth. But the Trump team also hated me because I was talking about how they were making money and the drama behind the scenes and the concerns and the messy ground game. - I mean. - Yeah. [00:10:29] I just I think we're poor and then let the pieces fall where they fall. Right? Yeah. I mean, you kind of sound like a reporter where you're. Supposed to. Accurately report these are the the problems that they're having, but they are winning. - And they were winning. - Yeah, they did win. [00:10:44] Believe me, I know we took tremendous heat for saying he's winning. The polling is clear certainly in the beginning, in the middle. Certainly when Biden was in the race, it race, it wasn't even close, right? And so. But but people don't often don't want to hear the truth. [00:11:00] Okay, one more thing about legacy media before we move to the files. So, like I say, in from my taste, they don't cover money in politics almost at all. Right. And, and and I don't get it. [00:11:15] I mean, I think I do, but, but from a news perspective, I don't get it, because 95% of the time, the person with more money wins the race. And I wouldn't report that like, oh, it's a wonderful thing. Oh, this person is leading the race because they've raised more money. I would wonder well, yeah. Then who do they owe? [00:11:31] Right. But that part of the story never, ever, ever gets told. And then in the legislation, oh my God, the lobbyists have massive, massive influence. And they pretty much tell the politicians what to do. But whenever I read legacy media, that's not the story I see. [00:11:48] The story I see is about how they're having a debate about policy or ideology. So what do you make of that? Why do you think that that is not as emphasized in legacy media? Okay, so the sources to the stories, a lot of them are the consultants [00:12:04] around these politicians, right? The lobbyists, for example. And, you know, if you if you start writing about their money, you'll be cut off. That's who really cuts you off. That's who really takes away your access. That's the those are the people who really make it difficult for you if you mention, [00:12:23] you know, they have pass through accounts that are making millions of dollars are coming in there from a superPAC. Or you talk about, you know, who's donating to their PACs or this or that. I mean, Ken Vogel at the New York Times is a great reporter. He's he's really on this. [00:12:38] He's been he really has covered money and influence in politics for a really long time. But a lot of journalists, especially beat reporters. They fall into the trap of not wanting to cover their sources because their sources benefit from this kind of [00:12:55] big money PAC money from lobbying money. They benefit from all that. It's the swamp. The swamp feeds itself. And the journalists are part of it, too. Yeah, that's a great answer. As a couple of things in there that I hadn't considered since I'm not in [00:13:12] that world, the power of the consultants is something I read about but didn't experience in the way that you. - Describe a mafia. - It really is. No, it's not a mafia, and people don't die because of it. But you know, their careers can be ended in a lot of ways, right? I think there's a there's a real power of the consultancy class, [00:13:30] but they're also blamed. They're always the first to be blamed, too, when a candidate loses. I mean, there are a circular firing squad happening right now within the Biden world and the Harris world. How can you spend over $1 billion and still lose? Right. Who made money? [00:13:45] Which PAC made all this money? Who cleaned up at the end? You know, there's a lot of anger at that super Pac. I'm blanking on the name of it right now, but. - It was. - Run by Biden's. Yes. Future forward. It was run by Biden's, former communications director, Anita Dunn. [00:14:01] Where did all that money go? That's what everyone always says, right? But you know that someone walked away a lot richer. And the candidate loses. And that makes people angry because you you can walk away rich as long as your candidate wins. Because once you're in power, then everyone gets wealthy [00:14:16] through the influence game. Access to power again. - It's so sick. - It's all about. Getting that that that it's all about that access game. And it's it works for the journalist too. I mean, that's part of the reason why I don't live in Washington. I just think that there's something about it. [00:14:32] It rubs off on you. I go there frequently, but for work to do, reporting to meet with sources. But at the end of the day, I think you got to get out of there, take a shower and rearrange, you know your life and realize this is not normal. Yeah, yeah. [00:14:47] No, no, that is a really interesting way of, of framing it. I think that's right. I think those. And if you notice, by the way, for those of you at home, how many stories have been written where they named the consultants that kept a lot of money and got super rich off this campaign, even though Kamala Harris lost? [00:15:07] - I haven't. - Seen any. I don't know. If there's been 1 or 2. But. I've seen where. You know, it's rare. You do see it from time to time. My former my former colleague Teddy Schleifer at, The New York Times, he's written about it. I've written about it as well. Particularly after the campaign when people realized that Kamala Harris [00:15:24] was in debt after all of that. I mean, people were furious. Yeah, I got tons of phone calls. But yeah, a lot of people are they're they're not really willing to sell out their sources. And believe me, if someone's a former communications director and they're working a superPAC, they know how to work journalists to make [00:15:42] sure their names are not in the story. So that's another huge part of it. Once you're a source, you get more protected. Okay, so now let's speaking of protected and not protected, let's go to Jeffrey Epstein. Yeah. So you've covered this for a while. So first, fun question. [00:15:59] What do you think? Are the files, a relevant when we finally see them? Are there is there something real in the files? Of course, you're guessing it's your estimation based on covering it. And B, are we ever going to see the files? [00:16:14] Okay, so there's no John Doe list. I'm so tired of hearing people say the list. Okay? There is no list. Everybody needs to get over that. There is no list. Now, I've gone through almost all the public files. And those are the files that Pam Bondi put out. [00:16:31] There was nothing new. It was a complete joke when she did that. And she used these right leaning influencers as props in front of the white House with her classified binder. Nothing in there was classified. It was Virginia Giuffre. Roberts. All of those were her court documents, basically. [00:16:47] She's a she's a very good friend of mine. I worked on the podcast with her broken Jeffrey Epstein. Definitely check it out. We traveled all over and we found witnesses to corroborate her case in the case of so many others, and they ended up using it actually to, to prosecute Ghislaine Maxwell, the only person, [00:17:03] by the way, who is behind bars right now, despite the fact that this is like the largest sex trafficking operation, maybe in our modern time right now, it's unclear, at least in America. But the point is that no one has paid the price for this. [00:17:18] And there there's absolutely, absolutely evidence that hasn't been released. There's photographs. I'm sure there are videos. The girls told me that there were that they basically filmed everything. There were videos of everything. [00:17:34] They were constantly collecting compromise. So I'm sure the FBI has that. Problem is there are minors involved in this. And so I could see why they don't want to make those, make that footage, that data public. Because there are a lot of there are a lot of women's names there. [00:17:52] You know the names of children now? Women? There are graphic photos. I remember Virginia showing me, telling me that she was brought into the FBI, and they saw a picture of her being, you know, being raped by a very prominent person. [00:18:09] I don't want to mention it right now because, you know, I feel uncomfortable speaking about her and her experience in her death. Something that she didn't talk about publicly. But, yeah, this is there. They have photographic evidence. That's probably the what they're withholding and the videos, that footage, [00:18:27] they could certainly try to prosecute these people. Yeah. So a. - Couple things about. - Stopping them. - I mean. - Well, some. Of the names that I've heard, I can understand why they're not prosecuting them. - They're very powerful people. - Yeah. So well, a word you use might explain it. You use the word kompromat. [00:18:46] And that's having, you know, compromising information about a public official that you could then use, presumably to blackmail them and influence them. And so who was collecting this as Kompromat? Oh, Epstein was he was absolutely collecting it. [00:19:04] Just Epstein. Or do we think there was someone behind Epstein? Oh, you think Mossad? Is that what you're thinking? I know that he was helping CIA. I remember seeing that in some of the data, in some of the documents that he [00:19:20] had offered some some information to CIA. I don't know exactly what it was, but it was factored into his sweetheart deal. I mean, he did travel a lot. He was friends with Ehud Barak. You know, he was, constantly. He was, you know, he was he was constantly among powerful people. [00:19:38] He picked up things and he passed it along. And that was a factor in his sweetheart deal. Do I think he also did that with other intelligence agencies? I don't think Epstein was a particularly upstanding gentleman, Gentlemen. So I think, you know, it's possible. I just don't have any. [00:19:55] I never had any data to suggest that or know anything about that. But I know that the people he spent time with certainly had those contacts. He knew people at the highest levels of many governments, and I could see them [00:20:11] seeing him as being a useful person. I mean, it's really unclear to me how a guy who was a high school math teacher suddenly becomes a billionaire, right? He was a high school math teacher, right? - He was a high school. - Math. - Teacher. - No, I know that's what's funny. - I mean. - Lex. Wexner is the only reason he has billions of dollars. [00:20:29] It's crazy. I mean, he was teaching at Dalton trying to pick up students. They had to get rid of him. - Yeah, well, his. - Father actually was like, you're done. You're out. So hold on. I want to talk about that more. So first for the audience who Brock's former prime minister of Israel [00:20:46] and the person who gave Epstein the sweetheart deal back in, I think zero eight and down in Miami was Acosta, who then later became Trump's labor secretary in his first term. - And he was. - A. Lawyer, was Ken Starr. Yeah. Epstein's lawyer was Ken Starr, who you all know. [00:21:03] Yeah. That is so curious. Right. So. Well, he hired Republicans and Democrats when he did this, he made sure to have the full gambit. - Yeah, so that he could work every angle. - So tell us about Lex Wexler. [00:21:18] You said he picked him up and turned him into a billionaire. Who is he? Les Wexner is the billionaire. Excuse me? Yeah, the billionaire, behind Victoria's Secret. He created Victoria's Secret. And now it's. [00:21:37] He's disgraced. I believe the board took it away from him. But, I mean, he's obviously someone that Epstein would be attracted to. He's the man who creates Victoria's Secret Angels, right? He had access to the the runway show the lifestyle, [00:21:53] and they became very good friends. In fact, Jeffrey Epstein helped introduce Lessig's to his wife, Abigail. And it's very weird because most people say that les was not exactly a party animal. He wasn't like Jeffrey, who liked to be out and about, but they [00:22:09] were very close to the point where they had houses right next to each other, and there was a tunnel that connected the two houses on the Upper East Side. And these were the largest mansions in and. And Epstein bought les his apartment for $20 million, markedly underrate like underpriced. [00:22:27] They their relationship was very weird, to the point where some people suggested that they might be lovers, that they were that close. Wow. Well, the underground tunnel connecting their houses, I mean, especially knowing Epstein, I mean, that reeks of, creepy. [00:22:43] So. But, you know, if if if les wasn't into that lifestyle, you know? But, somebody collecting kompromat maybe connects to the person, to the people who were collecting the kompromat. We don't know. [00:22:59] I don't know, but it's impossible not to ask questions because there's. A. The biggest, like, bucket of kompromat the world has ever seen. And the idea that the intelligence agencies would not be interested in that is preposterous. [00:23:15] And then he shows up dead in a maximum security prison in America, with the video camera not working in the hallway and the guards on break and his roommate removed. All right, so let me ask you that. I'm with you, though. I think it's very suspicious. I'm not a big. I'm not very conspiratorial. I'm really not. [00:23:31] I try to live in the fact world, but there are a lot of coincidences in that, in that story. I mean, it's it. And there was that. There was the cop from Long Island inside of the, who who people, I mean, CBS news suggested he could have been paid off privately. [00:23:51] You know, so I don't I don't. Know as much about that one. So. So look for just real quick. So, you know, Tara, I said live on the air when we found out that he got killed, I said if the camera in the hallway is working, then it was a suicide. [00:24:06] If the camera in the hallway was not working, then he was killed. And when the. And we found out later the camera isn't working. I'm like, there are no coincidences that large. Like the most valuable prisoner bragged. He bragged that he was Trump's boy, that Trump was his boy, [00:24:23] and that he would never prosecute him. He did that before he just years before he was arrested. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, he's so. Despondent that he's going to kill himself when he thinks Trump's never going to prosecute him. And by the way, he's a very good reason for believing that they were friends for a long time. And when Ghislaine Maxwell was arrested and they asked Trump about it, he said [00:24:40] twice that she's a very fine person. So like, and he knows her. I mean, that is an unbelievable thing to say. - About. - The top groomer of our lifetimes. For the president to say that, that is just stunning. But tell me more about the cop. I'm happy you called her a groomer, by the way, because that is what she was. [00:24:57] And she's often in a inappropriately and disrespectfully to these girls called them madam. And it's like, no, you cannot be a madam to a 14 year old. They're children. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's just it's textbook groomer. - Textbook. - Yeah, right. [00:25:13] - Horrible what she did. - Yeah. And not a fine person, a terrible person. Right. So. Okay, so you were saying about the Long Island detective. Tell me more about that. Well, there's a cop in Long Island, and I remember that. 60 minutes at a very long piece about what you talked about. The the fact that he would have to have hung himself with the sheets and and [00:25:34] the guards were asleep and and all and, and, you know, the cameras off and that the way that these what happens inside of prisons. Well, first of all, pedophiles don't do well in prison, by the way. They're often the first to be killed. They. [00:25:49] Even for criminals who commit murder and do other heinous acts. The lowest of low in a prison is a pedophile. And so they are often targeted. But there's a possibility, they suggested, that this police officer, [00:26:05] from Long Island, could have been paid off by someone to to do this. Now, he wouldn't obviously make the money get the money directly, but it would be good to his family. So I always thought check out around his neighborhood and see if they all of a sudden have new cars, or they're updating their houses or they're buying a boat. [00:26:21] But, you know, that's sort of how it's done. It's not like, you know, this idea that, oh, the Clintons are clawing into the into the, you know, into the jailhouse. It's like they had El Chapo in there. I mean, it's crazy to think about the level. [00:26:37] This is this is a this is has had some of this prison has held some of the most important, detainees we've ever really had. And I just think. - There's. - One thing. - Coincidence? - Yeah. In my opinion, there's one thing that's just inarguable. [00:26:55] There is no force on Earth that could kill someone inside a maximum security prison in America, and not have either the Democrats or the Republicans turn them in. - And that's one. - Of the it wasn't. A maximum security prison, and it did have its flaws. I do remember that the New York Post pointed out that this this prison wasn't [00:27:12] a great one, but still, I just you have a very high profile prisoner in there. - Yeah. - You. And so I hear you on that. And, and it's a good clarification and correction that it was a maximum secure. By the way, he should have been in maximum security. - Right. - Right. Especially given what happened. [00:27:29] But still having that person killed inside a prison and then neither side outs. Who did it? It's got to be an intelligence agency. There's. There's no other force on Earth that could do that other than either CIA or Mossad or both. [00:27:45] I mean, I suppose. It could be a different intelligence agency. You pay someone to do the inside job, or you're right. Or someone. But why wouldn't they release the files then? If it's like some rando. - Know. - Who killed Epstein? Yeah, I don't I think there's just. [00:28:05] They're just really, really powerful people, I think that. - Yeah. - Well, there you go. Okay. And I think they're on and they're on both sides, because even the way he handled the first case against him, which was somehow brought down to prostitution of a child of a 14 year old, as if you can solicit prostitutes, solicit a 14 year old for prostitution. [00:28:24] That's what his his first charge was back in was 2001 or 2000. Yeah. - Or. No, no, it was 2008. - Excuse me. 2008, I. Think. Exactly 2008. And first of all, that's an absurd charge. Yeah. You can't a 14 year old can't be a prostitute. [00:28:40] But they worked every political angle they could possibly work. They hired the lawyers when they had to deal with at the county level, the Democrats, they hired the top Democratic lawyers they could possibly find when they had to go to and deal with Acosta, they hired all the top, you know, [00:28:58] Republican lawyers they could find. They worked it all the way up to the A.G. When George W Bush was president. So it was like they he had the money to buy everyone. Everyone was bought. Yeah. So one last thing about about that. So, look, I, I get that, [00:29:18] if you've got the victims names or the victims in the videos or the pictures, that's uncomfortable, etc.. First of all, redacting doesn't take ten years. It doesn't take two years, it doesn't take one year, it doesn't take six months. I let you know, I could redact that document for you in a week. [00:29:35] Okay? Or I don't care if you have a room full of documents. Trust me, we can redact it in a couple of weeks. Okay. So. But at a bare minimum, what is is there even an excuse for not releasing the names of the clients? I mean, we know who they were, and we know that that they were with underage girls. [00:29:55] So what's the reason not to release the names? I don't know, the I my I think maybe I my, I, I, I hope that it is to protect the women. I mean some of them this is like traumatic to have information [00:30:13] to have out there without your consent. I mean, a lot of women don't talk about sexual abuse or the violence committed against them because it's retraumatizing. But but, Tara, they already we already know that they got traumatized and we already know. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean that they want. [00:30:30] - All the details of it out. - There. No, no, but it doesn't have to be details. It could just be the names. And I don't see how that further traumatizes anyone, because it's not the names. - Of the victims, it's the names of the. - Clients. It's very complicated. I mean, this was it took me a really long time to earn the trust of the victims. [00:30:47] You know, the survivors, but a lot of them. Still, they don't want to talk about it. You know, there's been a number of suicides. It's not just Virginia Giuffre. It's it's really hard psychologically what they've been through, and I don't know. [00:31:03] Listen, I don't know that the the government has decided that they want to think about the psychological impact on these young women. But I do think that if you got a phone call from the FBI and they said, hey, we're going to release the details around your assault and the person who did it, [00:31:19] and this is going to cause a news cycle, and this is going to cause, you know, reporters to, you know, call you or this or that. It's it's really it's really, really hard, you know? Yeah, I hear you. - I mean. - They go by Jane Doe. I know, you know, usually Jane Doe has come forward and they say I'm the Jane Doe [00:31:39] and I'm going after John Doe, right. But when it's when the details of their cases come out without their permission. That's that's when it gets difficult. Even when they are Jane Doe's. Yeah. Listen, that is definitely true of the women. [00:31:54] And I can understand why they would be retraumatized if you got into the details or their names, their identities, the acts, etc.. But I'm. - But I'm not. - Buying. I'm not buying that the US government is so concerned about retraumatizing the victims that that is why they're hiding the names of the guilty. [00:32:13] I think they're hiding the names of the guilty because they care more about the clients that did these terrible things than they care about the women who suffered from it. You listen. You may be right. And I'm not trying to cover for the US government, but I. [00:32:30] I see that side of the coin. But I think that what they should do, rather than release the names, is actually stand up a trial and and and actually indict these people, make them pay for the crime rather than just shame them publicly, [00:32:45] and then they can deny it. They actually put together a case, prosecute them. - Like you did to Ghislaine. - Maxwell. Isn't that amazing. That they're not prosecuting these known pedophiles? They know that they did it. They literally have them on tape and they're saying, [00:33:03] golly gee, we just can't know. There's the American government. However, they're compromised, whether it's CIA or anything else is definitely compromised. In this case, there is no other logical explanation for why not to prosecute pedophiles when you have them on tape as pedophiles. [00:33:24] Like, it's just not. No, they're protecting those people for whatever reason. And there. - I have. - To. Yeah, I agree. And I have to say that I have never seen the tapes, to be clear. I just know from the girls that everything they believe everything was taped. [00:33:39] Yeah, that's because it was taped. Because it was compromised and it was. But so anyways, it's super interesting. I love that we had this conversation. Yeah, to. Me, you know, everybody can draw different conclusions. The the conclusions that I draw have become even more firm [00:33:56] that there's I would be shocked. Shocked if it wasn't an intelligence agency. I mean, theoretically, I guess it could be the British. They don't seem as likely, but they had Prince Andrew, right? But it's got to be an intelligence agency. No one else could kill someone in a US president like that. [00:34:12] And have the American government not object, and have the American government not prosecute any of the guilty that are on tape. It's just not conceivable. Yeah. I mean, he was a secretive guy. I did a, another podcast on Robert Maxwell. [00:34:28] Ghislaine Maxwell's father, who was also assumed to be a part of Mossad. He he died mysteriously falling off his yacht. - Oh, of course he did. - He. Yeah. And the lady Ghislaine, he named after his daughter. And he was said to be the person who connected Lady Ghislaine [00:34:46] with Jeffrey Epstein. So it's never been proven, but he's believed to be the matchmaker between the two. So maybe that is where connection was formed. He is a very interesting character. It's called power. The Maxwell's, if you're looking to binge it, is truly a binge. [00:35:03] But you can understand where she came from. Daddy was a lot like Epstein. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. Things that make you go. When you find out the biggest rumor in American history. Dad was a mossad agent. [00:35:19] And then the rest of it, kind of falls into place. All right? But you never know. You never know. But we just can give you the facts. We know, but not the facts. We don't know. Okay. Tara's, newsletter is called a red letter on Substack, and her show is the Tara Palmeri Show. [00:35:35] Tara, I love that we did this. We should do this more often. Yeah. Thank you. And you can find me on YouTube, too. Now, that's where we saw each other recently. Yeah. And it's at Tara Palmeri I just launched, but I appreciate you having me on and I'm happy to come on whenever. And I'd love to have you on my show too. We're just getting started. [00:35:52] But I'm so impressed with what you've built over the decades. I remember I was here, I was on your show about ten years ago, I think. Or was it 2018 or 2019 when Epstein was arrested and I came on and I talked to you about it? [00:36:07] - Yeah. - From a closet. - During. - Covid. Yeah. Yeah. - You. - Always ask the right questions. Thank you. Thank you. And, Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, all of that has been brought a little bit out of the closet these days. The Epstein files, but. - Not. - Completely. It's still in the closet. [00:36:23] Anyways, yes, I'd love to do your show. Everybody check out Tara's show. Tara Palmeri show on YouTube. And again, check out our Substack, red letter as well. All right. Thanks to. - I really appreciate it. - Thank you. Every time you ring the bell, an angel gets its wings. [00:36:39] Totally not true. But it does keep you updated on our live shows.